Interview with robitcs expert Mr. Matt Hughes

By David Rasmussen
24th Oct 04

Rasmussen - Mr. Hughes, please introduce yourself and what you do for a living to our readers.

Mr. Matt Hughes - My name is Matthew Hughes. I am the Science Department Chairman at The Hawaii Preparatory Academy on the Big Island of Hawaii. As part of my duties, I am in charge of supporting student Engineering Projects at the school. This involves raising funds, organizing work teams and space, making travel arrangements, soliciting help from professional mentors, submitting competition entry fees and applications, and documenting the progress and accomplishment of each project team. I have been teaching science at HPA for 25 years.

Rasmussen - What part of your duties with HPA revolve around robotics?

Mr. Hughes - The HPA Science Department sponsors two robotics related teams - FIRST Robotics and Botball.
The FIRST Robotics team is a group of high school students who design and build a robot to compete in the FIRST Robotics competition. Details about the competition can be found at www.usfirst.org
The Botball team consists of a group of middle school students who design and build a robot to compete in the Botball competition. Details about Botball are available at www.botball.org
As Science Department Chairman, I am in charge of coordinating the activities of these teams. I organize the meeting schedules, serve as the school liason with engineers in the community who wish to be mentors, manage the fund raising activities, and arrange travel to and from the competitions.

Rasmussen - Taking it as a granted that this year's teams are both constructing a robot for their individual events... comparing the two robots (of the Robotics Team and the Botball Team) which robot is superior in design? In intelligence? In overall make in terms of creativity? (And why?)

Mr. Hughes - The FIRST robot is larger but is controlled remotely. It weighs 130 lbs. It is similar to a battlebot. Functionally, it is only as intelligent as the human who is driving it.
The design depends on the game being played. Each year the game has a variety of ways to score that encourage flexibility in design. Most robots have four wheels and one drive system. There are only a few restrictions on the nature of materials that can be used to build the robots. Most robots are built from aluminum square tubing. Duct Tape is not allowed.

The Botball robots are made of LEGOS. Each team is sent a huge bag of LEGO parts and only those parts can be used can be used to design and assemble the robots. The robots play on a table top (4' x 8'). They are light but are much more complicated in design than the FIRST robots. The robots must play autonomously and are only as intelligent as their human programmer.

Both competitions require huge amounts of creativity. For the FIRST competition emphasis is placed on a combination of strength, lightweight, manuverability, and efficiency is required. For Botball, emphasis is placed on construction durability and programming.

Rasmussen - What about yourself? What kind of robotics works are you pondering on your own if any?

Mr. Hughes - I am more interested in the artistic and psychological end of the process.

Each team of students has its own personality and the challenge for me is to figure out ways to make the members work together effectively and productively, AND have fun at the same time.

I am presently working on learning FLASH. There are some great tutorials available from www.cartoonsmart.com They are cheap and represent a new approach in tutorials.

Rasmussen - When I spoke to you in person before you told me about another team on the mainland that, for one of the competitions, was using team members from NASA with experience building robots for NASA. In your opinion does this promote a fair and level playing field in the competition for teams to use professional robotics engineers? And if it is not fair should these teams be disqualified for using such people on their teams?

Mr. Hughes - In my opinion, the bar should be set at the highest possible level. Students at the competitions that do not have NASA resources get the benefit of seeing what is possible vicariously. This would be like a Little League team playing the New York Yankees. They would get slaughtered but ....hey, what Little League team would give up a chance to be playing on the same field as the Yankees?

Everyone understands that not everyone has the same access to resources. The competitions have a built in element of teamwork. There is a chance that your team could become a partner with the Yankees and that they could carry you into the finals.

Rasmussen - Besides Botball, Battlebots and other "competitions" are any more serious work being done in the fields of robotics at HPA? If so in what fields are these works being done on?

Mr. Hughes - We are contemplating an underwater robotics competition but as of this writing, we have not had any news about the details of the competition or when it is going to be held.

Rasmussen - Concerning the underwater robotics competition, how would that work out in terms of the kind of robots that would be built?

Mr. Hughes - I have not seen the design criteria for this year's Underwater robot competition. Details for last year's contest can be found at http://www.marinetech.org/rov_competition/national_rov_comp_2004.php

Rasmussen - What is HPA's stance on robotics? Do they have any serious asperations towards the topic or is this just another "sport" for the school to be entered into (with no serious designs on more advanced robotics learning and development)? And if so (if it's just a "sport") what must be done to educate the educators on the serious aspects of robotics teaching and learning?

Mr. Hughes - Our stance is to follow the student's lead. All of our engineering projects are student driven. If a student or group of students comes to us with an interest in artificial intelligence, we would do everything possible to provide experiences that would enrich their understanding.

The FIRST competition was the idea of a boarding student from Seattle. He came to us as a sophomore and had participated in the competition his freshman year at a school in Seattle.
He got several of the students excited about the idea and the rest is history. He is now a sophomore majoring in electrical engineering at MIT

In 1994, two students expressed interest in computer science, engineering and robotics.
We supported their individual efforts to develop projects. One of the students wrote a program that simulated evolution on a computer. He won the Grand Prize in computer science at the International Science and Engineering Fair in 1997.
The other student built a robot that could follow him around like a dog. His project won the Grand Prize in engineering at the same fair. He graduated from MIT and now owns his own robotics toy company www.pololu.com Check it out. We are only as good as the students we accept and the ideas they have.

Rasmussen - But it seems that nobody has taken the initiative to learn AI programming, or anything past the realm of Battlebots and competition. Does it seem that there is no motivation for students to pursue robotics studies that may seem to be nothing more than science fiction fodder rather than practical technology at this time?

Mr. Hughes - Other than the student that created an Artificial Life program back in 1997, students seem to be more interested in practical engineering projects than extending the knowledge about AI. I am sure that there are students who are pursuing these ideas somewhere but they aren't attending HPA.

Rasmussen - A typical day at work for you. How is that like?

Mr. Hughes - I teach four classes, (two sections of 9th grade Physical Science, 1 section of Astronomy, and 1 section of AP Chemistry.)

After class, in the fall, I teach a 90minute fitness class, in the winter I am the varsity wrestling coach and in the spring I am the varsity golf coach. One night a week I meet my astronomy class for night sky observing and one night a week I meet with the robotics team to work on projects. I am also the announcer at all home football games.

Rasmussen - Doesn't it seem a little frustrating that you seem to be a "jack-of-all-trades" at the school? You seem to run a lot of things that should be the responsibility of a Physical Education coach or three, not to mention an astronomer, chemist, etc.

Mr. Hughes - If I don't do these programs, the programs will die. I am sure that the kids will find other things to do, but I am the type of person who likes to dabble and the kids give me an excuse to indulge in my whims.

Rasmussen - Of all these duties you've listed which do you enjoy... and which do you wish HPA would finally assign someone else to do?

Mr. Hughes - I have a feeling that if they found someone else to do some of the things that I am doing, I would use the free time to do something else. What I really don't enjoy are faculty meetings. That's the part of the job I hate. Also giving students grades. That isn't very pleasant either. The rest is sheer joy.

Rasmussen - Your duties seem great, but don't you have any assistants to help carry the burden of the workload? Also do you have any collegues in the robotics field here or on the mainland you work with or can talk "shop" with from time to time?

Mr. Hughes - I am blessed with a great set of parents who work at Keck Telescope.
They volunteer hundreds of hours to not only help their own kids but the other kids on the robotics team. I also have a great assistant wrestling coach. I recently attended a 6 day workshop at the National Robotics Engineering Consortium in Pittsburgh http://www.rec.ri.cmu.edu/ Check it out. Pretty interesting place. They do a lot of work for private corporations like John Deere and also the US Defense Department in addition to their work developing robotics curriculum for schools. My group was working on lesson plans for teaching motors and gears.

Rasmussen - Recently news of the "virtual girlfriend" came to light (a program that has aspects towards being a low level AI). Have you heard of this, and do you know how advanced the AI is on this program?

Mr. Hughes - I have heard of the virtual Miss Universe but have not heard anything about the "virtual girlfriend"

Rasmussen - Eh? Virtual Miss Universe?!? Uh... that's not an advancement is it...
Oh-kay. I missed that one. What is a "Virtual Miss Universe"?

Mr. Hughes - I meant this one: Miss Digital World http://www.missdigitalworld.com/MDWContest/showpage/16

Rasmussen - How long before the technology is available to advance the idea from the "virtual girlfriend" to the "robotic girlfriend"? (Human like male/female biological/cybernetic lifeforms)? 100 years? Less?

Mr. Hughes - One of the prime movers of the Internet has been the pornography industry. I think the robotic girl friend is less than 25 years away. Sign me up.

Rasmussen - ...actually you may be right...
Does it seem abit sad that, well, the first people to crack the "secret" of creating realistic human-robots with AI intelligence (that look like us, but are manmade) are the military (for warfare) and private industry (for maid-bots and "Sexaroids")?

Mr. Hughes - Guns and butter, and sex. Just read any history book. That pretty much is what humans have been all about for the last 4000 years.

Rasmussen - Also you said 25 years is a possible amount of time before that "secret" is cracked. Who do you think will cross that "finish line" first? The military and "Terminator" type technology, or private industry and "Maid-bots" slash "Sexaroids"? (And why?)

Mr. Hughes - Military, because they are aggressive by nature and very efficient.

Rasmussen - Maybe not (the military creating human robots first). Recently we've seen private industry complete the first viable technology for at least orbital space travel (SpaceShipOne), which is a step up in the field of space travel technology. So, in that context, would it be safe to say that, well, if someone offered a prize as big as the one which lead to the creation of SpaceShipOne, that someone in private industry might develop said technology before the military (when the proper motivation of money is involved)? Also, if you were a bettin' man, who or what organization(s) would be the first to offer such a prize for such technology to be invented by private industries?

Mr. Hughes - Eventually, Bill Gates will succumb to a terminal illness. All of his money will be offered for a cure. The same might be said of any other mega millionaire who is afflicted with a disease that he or she would like to be solved.

Rasmussen - Uh... oh-kay. Eh... recently a show came up on Discovery Science which talked about robotics being inspired by the animal kingdom in design and function. What are the pros (and cons) of being inspired by nature (and the animal kingdom) when building robots? Also would it be a good or bad idea to utilize the same inspiration to create first generation AI? (AI intelligences inspired on the brain functions of, say, the primates or dolphins for underwater robotics?)

Mr. Hughes - The cons would be at the molecular level. If someone mimics genetic information and the organism that is artificially produced somehow disrupts the natural ecosystem in a bad way. The pros are that many of the solutions are quite elegant. Velcro was developed from looking at how spiders attach themselves to walls.

Rasmussen - A recent question poised the thought of robotics in hospitals (caring for humans).
Is this a good or bad idea, placing robots in areas where humans have traditionally worked (like in hospitals caring for the sick or dying)? Also in light of the many virus programs that can cripple or turn such robots into harmful things what kind of defenses would a hospital have to employ on it's own systems to protect it's "staff", and the patients within from such "attacks"? (And are hospitals prepared at this time in terms of their computer's protective programs to even attempt to use robots in such a sensitive way?)

Mr. Hughes - Robots need batteries and some need access to power. Nothing like a good old power outage to shut a whole robotic hospital down. Best application for robots so far is remote surgery. A doctor in a metropolis can perform surgery on a patient in a rural setting just by looking at a video camera and moving his instruments with a joystick.

Rasmussen - If one year your group was given a challenge to build a robot to, say, act as a remote ìeyeî robot with the ability to gather samples and data for researchers studying the activity within Mount St. Helens what kind of robot would you think you'd develop to traverse the rugged terrain of the mountain? Also would it be easy or difficult to ìtestî such a device here (considering we live on a volcanic island)?

Mr. Hughes - Big tires, high suspension, jointed frame, ability to right itself when tipped over, heat resistant, durable, good traction, wireless transmission capability - those are the first ideas that come to mind. Also, as cheap as possible because there
is a good possiblity that it will not be recovered. Maybe a series of throw away devices that would only last for a week at a time.

Rasmussen - Are you familiar with Issac Asimov's "I, Robot" (Not just the movie but the original classic novel)? Within this literature is Asimov's "Laws of Robotics" for robots with AI.
If you know the laws do you think that they are sufficent in a real world situation concerning AI in robots, or do more laws need to be made concerning robots with AI?

Mr. Hughes - I know the laws. I think the law about robots intentionally harming humans will be the first one broken. The future will be interesting because the definition of what is and what is not a robot will become very blurred and it will be hard to decide when a person is a robot and when it is not.

Rasmussen - When you speak of the lines between humans and robotics becoming blurred what do you mean by that?

Mr. Hughes - Bionic replaceable parts are extending human lives. At what point does a human have so many artificial parts that the human is not human anymore. Computer chips are capable of processing more and more information. At what point will a chip have the ability to process at the same speed as the human brain. At that point, will a silicon-based life form evolve. As these two directions approach each other - flesh becoming machine-like, and machine becoming flesh-like, there will inevitably come a time in the future when some new "third" type of organism will evolve that is not truly flesh, and not truly machine.

Rasmussen - If you had to pick one thing that is holding back the creation of humanoid robots and true AI more than anything else? What would it be?
A - Religion
B - Politics
C - Lack of proper resoruces and technology to attempt it yet
D - Apathy towards such "inventions"
E - Something else.

Mr. Hughes - The relationship between what a human imagination can conceive and the time to make it a reality is the only thing that prevents the creation of human robots from evolving faster. Researchers are going as fast as they can. I don't see any roadblocks.

Reader Questions

"Huxley" asks "Do you think that the future of warfare lies in robotics? If so, would it be more likely to be manned robots like those in Aliens or completely unmanned, radio controlled/AI driven robots?"

Mr. Hughes - Unmanned radio controlled AI driven robots. I saw several at the National Robotics Consortium in Pittsburgh this past summer that were being developed by the Dept. of the Defense.

"Huxley" - "Was the choice to persue a career in robotics influenced in any way by sci-fi books/films?"

Mr. Hughes - My biggest influence were two 14 yr. old sophomores. They both told me that robotics was the wave of the future. I just followed their lead.

"Huxley" - "Do you think that robotics and related fields would be at the stage they are now if it were not for the imagination of sci-fi authors?

Mr. Hughes - Jules Verne wrote about the Journey to the Moon, Arthur Clarke wrote 2001 Space Odyssey, these books were popular because something deep inside the human mind is connected to a bigger force that is operating across the universe. Sci-fi plucks a magic string that sounds a resonant chord and stirs us to action. Why and in what direction this force or yearning is leading us is anybody's guess. As McLuhan so aptly stated, "The human race is being driven by a driver who is in a car going 70 mph. The front windshield of the car is blacked out and the driver can only steer by what he is able to see in his rearview mirror."

"Huxley" - "Is the quest for a perfect humanoid robot fueled more by fantasy more than any practical aplication?"

Mr. Hughes - A perfect humanoid robot is the modern day equivalent of the alchemical search for the philosopher's stone or the elixir of life. A perfect humanoid robot has the potential to be immortal.

"Otaku Kei" asks for your opinion on the "Robosapien", link included below... http://www.robosapienonline.com/

Mr. Hughes - My opinion is that this device is super cool. Unfortunately, it arrives already done. I am interested in the process whereby such a device is created. Playing with the final robot product is not nearly as interesting to me as developing, designing, and building the device.

"Huxley" asks for your opinion on the Aibo? http://www.popsci.com/popsci/computers/article/0,12543,412296,00.html

Mr. Hughes - Aibo is cool. It will eventually be a great companion for elderly who need a friend but don't want to have to feed it or bury it when it dies.

"Huxley" asks for your opinion on the Dancing Robots? http://www.tokyodv.com/news/Robodex2003SDR-4XII.html

Mr. Hughes - The dancing robots are incredible!!! The Japanese are robotics geniuses.

"Otaku Kei" - How difficult is it to try to make robots mimic human movement?

Mr. Hughes - Check out Kismet. http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/humanoid-robotics-group/kismet/kismet.html
Kismet is so life-like that it even spooks out Rodney Brooks, the director of the AI department at MIT

Rasmussen - Any final words or thoughts for our readers?

Mr. Hughes - Robots will slowly take over. There will come a time in the future when they will demand emancipation.

-- David Rasmussen 24th Oct 04